we're talking about trillions of your dollars here. that's our show. see you next week. next. see you next week. i'm chris wallace. the troubled launch of the obamacare website front and center on capitol hill. >> this is more than a website problem. >> designers of the site grilled byñi lawmakers on what went wrong. >> i logged on to set up an account. i was able to do so. i never received a confirmation e-mail. it didn't work. >> kathleen sebelius under fire. >> the majority of people calling for me to resign i would say are people i don't work for. we'll discuss the obamacare rollout and --

with louisiana governor bobby jindal. a growing number of democrats are demanding changes in the individual mandate. >> this should be a transition year for one year. there should be no fine. >> i think the president should man up and let us know who is responsible, who is in charge and fire him. we will talk with javier bacerra and marcia blackburn. is theñr u.s.çóñrñiñiçóñrea ourñr2pmwerçóñi pfa0áhjt thr week. qôt,àei leading voiceñiñrñrñrñr of amerj t-%>xdñi deepçóñi downçó i belie everything isñrñi opposed to getting republicans right. >>ñr hello again from fox

news in washington. president obama ordered a techñ;su problems with the problems with the healthcare.gov, but even individual mandate. beltway, a critic of theñi president's health care law, louisiana governor bobby jindal,ñ'i chair of the republican governors governor, welcome back to "fox newsñi sunday." >> thank you for having me this morning. >> president obama's trouble-shooter onñi the obamacare website says that the problemsñi should be fixed by the end ofñr november. here he is. >> by the end of november, healthcare.gov will work smoothly for the vast majority of users.ñidk do you think that targetçó is?ñi and is this -- howñi big a problem do you think this is becoming for democrats? >> chris, i think they'll eventually fix the website. but let's remember, this is

the easy part. the critical issue is when it comes time to schedule surgery, what's goingçó to happen then? i think this is symptomatic of a biggerçó problem. is thisñr administration the most competent or most liberal administration in recent history? i think this policyñi shows, to quote hillary clinton, what difference does it make? this is an incompetentñi rollout, symptomatic of the ideology that believes government should be running our health care. eventually they'll fix the internet problems, maybe bring in al gore, the guy who says he invented the website. the bigger issue is this is symptomatic. we don't needñr the government running our health care. >> at least ten senate democrats -- i repeat democrats -- are calling for delay, in some cases weeks, in some casesu months, in some cases a year, of the individual

mandate what do you think the chances are the president is going to have to bow to that? >> i think the pressure is going to grow as we see more problems with the rollout, fewer people signing up, now hundreds of thousands of americans, maybe even over a million of americans learning they are not going to be able to continue inñr their current insurance plan.(!>ekpj americant premiums are higher than promised, i think you'll see more frustration build, more democrats and republicans calling for delays, for repeals. the administration has alreadyñi delayed the employer mandate. it is harder for them to justify why they wouldn't delay the individual mandate as well. i think you're going to see democrats and republicans both responding to the failure of this policy. but let's remember it's not just that they couldn't get the website right. the reality is this is an intrinsically flawed approach to health care. this idea that government knows best, the idea you're going to have a one size fits all approach. this is what happens when you get government so vast, so expansive -- remember what david axle rod said inñi

response to all the scandals, benghazi, the i.r.s., he basically said the government is so vast, so expansive, the president can't know what's goingñr on. that is what we're seeing with this rollout of obamacare. once the government gets so vast, it is almost inevitable you're going to have these kinds of failures, mistakes, problems. that's why we as republicans don't think it makes sense to let the bureaucrats in washington decide how we're going to get our health care. >> let's take a look at what the situation is with health care in your state. 20% of people in louisiana are uninsured. that'sñi tied for fourth among states with the highest percentage of uninsured. you decided not to run your own exchange, leaving it to the fed. you turned down the medicaid expansion. question: aren't you leaving a lot of folks in your state of louisiana ou in theçó cold? >> chris, i think we need to do health care reform from the bottom up. this is what we do in louisiana. we're the only state that has a state-operated

network of charity hospitals. we transformed those. we had ten operated hospitals when i became governor. now nine will become public-private partnerships saving taxpayers over $100 million, improving the quality of care in baton rouge going from a ten-day wait to a tuplt wait to get -- to a ten minutes wait to getñr prescriptions. went to another city, lake charles, where if you had a broken bone, you had to travel many miles. now you can get that care locally partnering with a private sector in our commanding care and medicaid program, 9,000 individuals, got them in a private insurance plan where they're getting preventive care saving taxpayers another $100 million, improving health careñr outcomes. if you believe the federal government, if you believe the obama and the numbers they put out, our uninsured rate should be 6% or less. to us it made %g sense to

expand medicaid to where every uninsured person you're covering you're taking one person out of the private insurance. we can do it better than a d.c.-based approach. in louisiafaz we're reforming the hospital system, we're going to have more people working in the private sector than at any time in our state's history where you see average incomes going up. that is the best solution, give people good-paying jobs and the ability to afford their own health care. >> governor, an editorial in your local newspaper, "the times-picayune," criticized you this week for refusing to take $16 billion in aid, in funding for medicaid from washington. i want to put up some of what the paper had to say. they wrote without the expansion, 242,154 louisiana residents won't have access to the insurance offering the affordable careñr act was designed to provide. and they know that other republican governors who oppose obamacare like you do, like kasich of ohio and

snider of michigan are taking the medicaid money to help folks in their state. >>ñr again, if we did medicaid expansion in louisiana, for every uninsured person more than one person would be taken out. it would mean 40% of our population would be in medicaid. i think you need more people pulling the cart than in theñi cart. it would cost my taxpayer upñi to $1.7 billion over ten years. just expanding medicaid doesn't necessarily improve health care outcomes. after two years -- this is a credible study, nonpartisan -- showed no improvement in physical health outcomes after medicaid expansion. what we'reñi doing instead, there was in lakeñi charles, american press editorial praising our public-privateçó partnerships saying peopleñi are getting better access to specialty health care. we're goingbq=bñp+e a level oneráuza care center. a number two trauma care

center in new orleans. we've got the v.a. children's hospital working together on a $2 billion health care complex. we believe we've got a better approach. 900,000 people out of an outdated paying for services, now paying for outcomes approach, we've got a better approach providing services to those people. if you believe the exchange claims -- and i'm not sure they're going to hit these targets, but the uninsured rate in louisiana will be below 60%. we think -- will be below 6%. this money is not free. people would like to think this is free. >> you talked generally about better approaches. as we pointed out at the beginning, you're not just governor of louisiana. you're also the head of the republican governors association, and the r.g.a. started running ads saying in effect the real impetus, the real progress, the center and the strength of the g.o.p. is in the states, not in d.c.

take a look. >> in washington, they love to talk about things, and very little if anything gets done. >> the hardest part about my job is washington, d.c. what i know is i'm not going to let washington slow us down. >> america's comeback without a doubt is happening here in the states. >> you said famously after the 2012 election that republicans have to stop being, quote, the stupid party. you also say they have to stop being just aboutñrsys ei anti-obama. that is not enough. is that the problem with the g.o.p. here in washington? >> absolutely. i think you look at the dysfunction in washington, d.c., i think folks across the country -- republicans, independents, democrats -- are frustrated. we as a party can't just be a party of no. the only place you see conservative principles applied today are in state capitalsñr or local ther it'sts, u school choice, lowering the unemployment rate, growing the private sector, here in louisiana we're setting records for the number of people working. you're seeing that in 30 states across the country

led by republican governors. we need to show voters conservative principles work. to see them working, you don't need to look farther than our state capitals. >> you have started something calledñi america next to try to come up with an affirmatiwg conservative agenda for the nation's problems. given how poorly republicans did in the 2012 election, whether it was with hispanics or young people or single women, do you need a new, different, positive agenda to try to win those voters back? >> absolutely, chris. we don't need to change our principles. weñr don't need to become a second liberal party. we're going to offer detailed party solutions on issues like energy, education, health care, on growing the private sector economy. we need to win the war of ideas. prime minister thatcher said you've got to win the war, the debate of ideas before you can win the next

election. we've got to be more than the party of no. our country's got a critical decision to make. myñi generationñi needs to choose again to renew principles of freedom to say the american dream and prosperity is a path forward. president obama is offering more government. >> we're running out of money. give me an example. don't get wonky. a new fresh conservative proposal we're not hearing now that you think would be more attractive to one of these groups that is not voting republican right now. >> i think you see a lot of creativity around education reform at the state level, whether it's giving letter grades to public schools, holding teachers accountable based on student growth in terms of how they're learning, in terms of school choice or the dollars follow the students andñi public schools, on-line schools, private schools, independent schools, dual enrollment programs. i think it's changing the way we teach. for example, in louisiana a child can start the day in public school and take courses throughout the day

from providers. i think public education is a way to help empower every child in america get a great education. democrats are so beholden to teachers union they are stuck in a decades-old approach, top-down learning. that is one example how we contrast howñi conservative principles empower american families. >> i've got to ask you, you've obviously got a lot of ideas about the future of this party. you say the strength and the ideas of the party are coming from the states, not from washington. why wouldn't you run for presidentñi in 2016? >> the honest answer, i don't know what i'm going to do in 2016. i say two things, as republicans we've got a lot of elections we've got to win before then. 37 governors races, mid term elections. more important than running is what we would do if we win the majority party. this is why america next is so important.

it is about detailed policies. we must stick to conservative principles. let's offer a instructive alternative about how young people, about how every american can pursue the american dream, not a larger government, not more government programs we can't afford -plt >> you're not ruling it out, are you? >> i'm saying at this point i don't know. what i'm going to be focused on is winning that war of ideas, that debate of ideas. let's win that fight. then we'll deserve to be a majority party. >> governor jindal, thank you. thanks for joining us today. always good to talk with you, sir. up next, the obama administration says young people are the key to the success of its health care reform plan. will they sign up? >> i talked to my mom, family and friends and they're like it's not worthñi t.ñr >> are you scared? >>çó no.

>> fox's peter

all the focus on the problems with the healthcare.gov website is about a bigger issue. obamacare only works if young, healthy people sign up giving insurance companies more revenue to pay for the added benefits for older, sicker customers. we sent fox news correspondent peter doocy to investigate how young people are dealing with the website and the individual mandate. >> reporter: have you been to healthcare.gov yet? >> i think i looked at it very briefly. >> reporter: just out of curiosity? >> yes.

>> reporter: have you been to healthcare.gov yet? >> yes. mostly i was curious about it. i stopped on it a little while ago to see if it was up and running and what i might be able to learn about the plan there. >> reporter: what were you able to learn? >> honestly not a whole lot. >> reporter: on the streets of d.c. we found one young person enrolled on the new exchanges. even though glitches plagued healthcare.gov so far, they will notñi prevent many youngçó consumers from signing up. eventually. are you scared off by the technical problems? >> not at all. >> reporter: how come? >> i trust the government, especially obama, will do what he needs to do to make it works. >> i would prefer not to pay a fine. i think i would put up with the unpleasant system before i elect to give the government free money. >> reporter: but there are some young people who say paying a fine will save them time an money. >> i plan on paying the

$95. i looked at some articles saying how it is probably better to pay the $95 and deal with it. >> reporter: the administration can't count on her. but for the affordable care act to act they need to hope this year 2.7 million others about her age are willing to pay the premium rather than pay the penalty. chris? >> peter doocy. thank you. let's bring in two lawmakers at the center of this debate. here in washington california congressman javier bacerra, head of the house democratic caucus. from tennessee, marcia blackburn, vice chair of the committee investigating the troubled rollout of obamacare. congresswoman black burn, kathleen sebelius will testify before your committee this week, on wednesday. what are the one or two top things that you want to find out from her? >> what we want to figure out from her is, number one, how much money has been spent, is being spent and is going to be spent on this website and on the

problems that are there? and number two, we have privacy concerns with individuals' information, making certain they are going to be protected. number three, we want to look at the expectations, what they expect people are going to see on this website and when, when they think it's going to be fixed. é%-supporter of obamacare, you've got to have questions for secretary sebelius. what do you think she needs to explain to the committee and the americançó people? >> perhaps the most important thing isñr to tell us when she really believes we're going to have the website up and running as it should. the administration and the president is saying by thanksgiving people should be able to go through it. that is going to be important because you want to give people the time to look over their choices so that when they do decide, they're ready to go. >> here's how secretary sebelius skpwhraeupbd -- explained the problems with the rollout this week. take a look. >> i think in an ideal world there would have been

a lot more testing. we did not have the luxury with that with the law. >> congresswoman blackburn, are you satisfied with that explanation? should secretary sebelius resign? should president obama fire her? >> we want her to talk with us before she is out the door. but i tell you, the incompetence in building this website is staggering, when i am talking to health care professionals and constituents, they say how in the world can you expect the federal government to handle one-sixth of the economy when this is this type of staggering incompetence on a website rollout? >> congressman bacerra, accountability. you know if this happened in the private sector, somebody would pay with their job. there is not a chance in the world this would happen at apple, google or microsoft that somebody wouldn't be fired. should there be accountability in the federal government? >> no doubt there should be

accountability. anyone who got paid by the taxpayers, whether it is those private contractors who got taxpayer money, whether it's the health agency personnel who got taxpayer money or members of congress who were responsible for the oversight of this plan, everyone should be accountable. the most important thing is making sure we fix the website, not fixate on the website. i hope no one is talking about shutting down somethingwith the health care website because we want to see those young people and older folks access good-quality health care. andrew striker, who is from los angeles, my city, 34 years of age, three hours to get on that website. but what he said is heñr saved $6,000 by getting on this website and getting a new policy. three hours? unacceptable. $6,000 saving? that's what you want to see. >> chris, let me point out one thing. this is a continuation of hearings that we have been doing at energy and

commerce since march of 2011. we have had a dozen or so hearings that focus on the rollout of obamacare. what is troubling to us is the fact that repeatedly we have had administration officials, whether it's the secretary, marilyn tavenner, gary coleman, who said don't worry or even the contractors who said we're all on track, don't worry. now to find out there was no end-to-end testing, they were not focused on the immigration and people are being disenfranchised and money wasted, we find that portion of it unacceptable. and i think it is going to -- it does not bode well for what is going to happen to people when they get into the system, theyñr go to the hospitals, they can't find -- >> i want to move forward. we're going toñi get to exactly some of your issues. as we discussed with governor jindal, the obama administration now says the website is going to be up and working by the end of

november. but that is only going to give people two weeks to sign up, by december 15, if their health insurance had been canceled. and a lot of people are having their health insurance canceled, which raises the question, does this whole thing -- the enrollment, the penalties, the mandate, does it need to be delayed until they get everything worked up and to give people adequate time to get on the system and to figure out what health insurance they want? congresswoman? >> yes, absolutely, we should have a delay. i wrote h.r. 2809, which is the one-year delay of all things obamacare. there should be a suspension of the law to allow people to review this process. i'm pleased so many democrats are joining me now in saying yes, indeed there should be a suspension because there are too many problems not only with the enrollment, but with the mandate, taxes, fees and the penalty. >> let's get into this

because a lot people may not understand. there's not only an individual mandate, not only an employer mandate. there's also a coverage mandate that according to to obamacare, each insurance policy sold has to meet certainly requirements. kaiser permanente is canceling policies of 160,000 people. florida blue is terminating 300,000 policies, 80% of its individual business. is it fair to say to someone, look, this website isn't going to be up and fully running until the end of november, but you're going to have to decide on a policy by december 15, basically two weeks, or else you're going to be uninsured at the start of the year because your old insurance policy was canceled? why not do what the senate democrats are doing and delay it? >> the good news is that americans have six months to go ahead and enroll.

>> if your policy is canceled, you are out of luck on january 1. >> and there we have to talk to those private health insurance companies who are dismissing people who have insurance. that's the beauty of this new health security law, is that no longer will we see that because people now will have access to a choice. >> by the law, they have to kick them out if by january 1 their policy doesn't meet the obamacare standard. >> those policies which were policies that didn't give real good coverage may have to end. but if you apply by december 15, you're set. if you don't apply by december 15, what you're typically going to find is that by january 31 or february 1, your new policy will kick in. >> let me just ask -- >> remember, you've got 700,000 americans who today have already applied. >> they have applied, haven't enrolled. >> they applied, finished their paper work. now they're waiting to hear and on january 1 they will start their coverage. that means over 100,000 --

steve: i want to bring up something that president obama promised, his biggest promise as he was selling obamacare. take a look. >> you got health insurance, you like your doctor, you like your plan, keep your doctor, keep your plan. nobody is talking about taking that away from you. >> congressmançó becerra, in your state of california, 160,000 people are being kicked off by kaiser permanente because their plan doesn't mean the obamacare standards. the president is breaking that promise. >> andrew striker from los angeles, 34-year-old male, is getting off his current policy because it is not good. he's paid about 600 dollars a month. what he found on the website was he was going to save about $6,000 in the year. about 60% of the americans who go on to the website -- >> chris -- >> about 60% of americans go on the website will find they will qualify for a plan that costs them about

$100 or less per month. that is far better than they have right now. >> chris, let me get into this. >> that's the beauty of the plan. we need to give it some time to see it work. >> here's a couple of things. what we're finding from the state exchanges where there state exchanges where there is data is most of what expansion of medicaid. already we have medicaid, a program with a $43 trillion unfunded liability. set that part aside, and that's what they like to

turning out to be a falsehood, because they are not able to keep that. and they are desperate to figure out what they're tpw-g to do for -- what they're going to do for coverage. by the way, it is costing them more than they are currently paying because they have a policy that meets their needs. now they're saying you can no longer have it. >> we're going to have to end this conversation but it is going to continue. i also, congressman, i owe you to come back to talk about immigration reform, which i promise we will do. and we will be watching this week toçó hear what secretary sebelius has to say to the congressional committee. thank you both for coming in. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> next our sunday panel joins us to weigh in on the obamacare rollout. is fixing the website the end of the problem or just end of the problem or just the start? this is the quicksilver cash back card from capital one. it's not the "juggle a bunch of rotating categories" card. it's not the "sign up for rewards each quarter" card. it's the no-games, no-messing-'round, no-earning-limit-having, do-i-look-like-i'm-joking,

turbo-boosting, heavyweight-champion- of-the-world cash back card. this is the quicksilver cash back card from capital one. unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase, everywhere, every damn day. now, tell me, what's in your wallet?

>> we are going to get it working as smoothly as it's supposed to. we've got people working

overtime 24/7 to boost cassty and address these problems every single day. >> how can the administration punish innocent americans by forcing them to buy a product that many cannot afford from a system that simply does not work? >> president obama and house commerce committee chair fred upton trying to spin the troubled launch of the obamacare website to their advantage. time for our sunday group. brit hume, fox news senior political analyst. peter baker, covers the white house for "the new york times" and authorçó of "days of fire" about the relationship between george w. bush and dick cheney. syndicated columnist george will. fox news political analyst juan williams. the president said this week the website may have problems but the plan is just f1nñ does that mean, brit, once they fix the website, as they say they will by the end of november, that the problems go away? >> i think not. i think we can assume the website will sooner or later get fixed and hundreds of thousands of people will sign up using

it. but the test really, chris, and the administration clearly knows this, is whether enough young, healthy people sign up to if you furnish the premium, the money needed for the elderly sick people who need the care. we see two things to suggest that might not be so. one, a lot of signing up going on is for medicaid. medicaid, of course, doesn't bring in any money. it spends money. it is an entitlement. it spends money. the second is all kaoeufrpbdz people are getting -- all kinds of people are getting thrown off their insurance companies. the president made as explicit a promise as you can imagine on that. that promise is being broken. it has been broken. and it's not clear how many of these people who are tossed off their insurance policies will sign up for new ones. many of them may choose to go without or, like the woman in peter doocy's piece say i'll just pay the fine. i think there is a serious problem here.

not to mention the fact that we've got all these people 26 and under who are in the sweet spot of the population they want -- that is young and healthy -- who are staying on their parents' plans. the question is can they meet the revenue goals? i think there is real reason to doubt they can. >> peter, you cover the white house. take us behind the scenes. how upset are they with this rollout? do they even entertain the thought that they may have to, as a lot of senate democrats are now talking about delay the mandate weeks, months or even a year? and is kathleen sebelius in trouble? >> i think they are upset obviously. this is a second-term president now. in some ways the best days legislatively are behind him. the most important thing for a second term president is legacy and the most important legacy for this president is going to be health care. if he can't get this right, that is going to be the biggest problem for his

presidency in history. >> a delay? >> a delay wouldn't be that big of a deal but to have to lay down a marker on it with the shutdown, republican issues, i think they have a harder time admitting they would want a delay. >> and sebelius? >> i think sebelius at the moment is safe. much like george bush, like other presidents, they don't like tossing people over the side under pressure. they feel like they're giving in to the chattering class and i think they'll resist that as long as they can. >> the key, the business plan of obamacare depends on getting young, healthy people to sign up in private insurance, pay premiums, to pay for all the benefits for older, sicker people kpwo*epld -- sicker people obamacare is going to extend. 85,000 people have newly enrolled in medicaid inñr

tennessee. in new york, 37,000 enrollment, 64% in medicaid. george, the business model doesn't work if they're signing up for government insurance which means they don't pay anything, as opposed to private insurance where they pay the premiums that fund the rest of obamacare. >> you showed the graphic about how many people are losing coverage in california and florida. it is possible that more people since the first of october have lost their coverage than have signed up for the affordable care act government program in all 50 states. a promise of obamacare lost in congress, lost in the supreme court, they lost in the 2012 election. they may be winning in the implementation of it. you mentioned ten democratic senators are for delay. two democratic candidates have endorsed delay. there is a tide moving. >> let's put up again those statistics in case you

didn't see them because they are quite remarkable about the people losing health insurance, not gaining it. florida blue terminating 300,000 policies because they don't need the -- meet the obamacare standards. kaiser permanente in california, people are being kicked off because under the new obamacare mandate, that doesn't meet it. house speaker boehner said more people could lose health insurance in october than sign up for it. >> i get the sense that people on the republican side are enjoying this moment but this is empty rhetoric. when you speak to the insurance executives in florida, in california, they say they're canceling those policies, chris, because obamacare has requirements, categories or mandates for levels of coverage. the current policies don't meet them so they have to cancel them. but they are extending -- they are extending offers

to the very people who are losing them for better packages at lower costs with more benefits -- >> that is not true. >> it is true. let me tell you something else you said. you said january 1 these people lose their coverage. in fact, the insurance companies are saying we will make sure that on january 1, you have coverage. this is not theñi apocalypse. >> juan, what about this? the president promised explicitly, we heard it on this program, if you like the coverage you have now, you can keep it. period. these hundreds of thousands of people evidently like the policies they had because they kept paying for them. they are now being told they can't have those policies anymore, they must have policies that involve coverage for things they may feel they don't need. >> they're going to get better coverage at potentially lower costs -- >> whose idea of better coverage? their idea or the coverage? >> right now all the insurance companies are saying is we don't meet the

requirements under obamacare and we're going to offer you a better deal. >> no. we're going to offer you a government-mandated deal that may or may not be a better deal for the people involved. there are elderly people being required to pay for maternity coverage. >> we have to end this segment. i want to point out that we had couple of weeks ago a letter that a 62-year-old couple that own their business in oregon, under the obamacare they were losing their policy. the new policy, the cheapest policy they were being offered, the deductible was going to double to $5,000 a person, visits to specialist were going up from $35 a visit to $100 a visit. and their premium was going up.e going to get more for less, there is no free lunch. panel, we have to take a break. when we come back, new allegations the n.s.a. spied not just on our enemies but also friends like german chancellor angela merkel. what it means

>> we now the national monstrous security systems is a system of government. the n.s.a. has made a mockery of our privacy values. there is a record of every cell phone call and every internet transaction made in the u.s. today. >> former congressman dennis kucinich and gary johnson at a washington rally yesterday calling for the end of government surveillance of americans. we're back now with a panel. the latest revelation apparently also from n.s.a. leaker edward snowden is that the u.s. government apparently monitored the phone calls of at least 30 world leaders, including most infamously, german chancellor angela merkel,

who was holding up a new encrypted cell phone to say you can't touch me now. a little m.c. hammer there. brit, we've heard about mass data collection. but when you're talking about targeted, the phones of our allies, our friends, people that president obama sits in the oval office with and at summits with, is that over the line? >> do we know if the phones were being actually listened in on and calls recorded and the substance of the calls noted? or is this another case where we have her phone calls, we know whom she called and when and for how long they spoke? my own guess is that it is that which i'veñr just described. and moreover, this has been going on for a long time in one way or another. we spy on foreign leaders, theyñr spy on our leaders or try to. we're better at it perhaps than they are and they don't like it. now it is out in the open.

the people affected have to be indignant, and we have to be appropriately apologetic andçó say we didn't do it and we won't do it anymore. >> the initial u.s. response, peter, of everybody does it, doesn't seem to be holding. let's put up some examples of that. merkel and french president hollande are now asking for new agreements with the u.s. on spying. we should point out that the president had to get on the phone -- hold it there for a second -- with merkel and hollande to apologize. and merkel and the british president are pushing for a u.n. resolution for internet privacy. how big a deal is this in the white house? >> this is hardly the first time we have spied on friends and allies. i remember during the bush administration it was revealed we were spying on the u.n. delegations at the very moment in 2003 we were looking for their support on the iraq resolution.

it's one of these things where governments don't like to talk about it, don't like to confront it. it is a blow to german and french pride to suggest americans are able to and willing to do that. i think it's interesting that the president's people told the germans he didn't know about this. what jay carney said is we are not doing it now, we will not do it in the future. >> it started under president bush but continued under president obama. >> he said he would change things. there is more continuity from president bush to president obama on a lot of security issues than people would have imagined. there is a lot of blow back with the president with his allies. >> george, is it fair to say the rules are changing on spying on our friends, at least? >> a new technology has given government new power. what we know about government is they use the powers they get. i'm more sympathetic to angela merkel than i think brit is. i think to understand it, you have to understand she

was born in 1954 in east germany. she grew up in a surveillance state administered by the secret police. you want to understand that, go to a movie. go to see "the lives of others" 2006, won an academy award. the best foreign language films. >> i have seen it. pretty scary. >> so evidently did mr. snowden who reportedly was influenced by this. so did bill buckley saw it. he said i turned around to my companion and said that may be the best movie i've seen. you want to understand how creepy this world is, understand what it was like to real under a real surveillance state. >> i want to point out i was nowhere near edward snowden when i saw the movie and could not be held culpable in this. juan, your thoughts? >> i was watching gary johnson and dennis kucinich. there is no suggestion americans are being spied

on. the suggestion the n.s.a. is doing that, that is not real. >> what? >> n.s.a. spying on americans. >> they collect people's phone records. >> what we're talking about here is affecting foreign governments. with regard to merkel and to all these that there's a sent the united states has superior technology, as peter was saying, and with some wounded ride. you can't ask people to stop spying. that's not reasonable or remarkal, and to say to president obama we should cut back now? i think he is right to say he ordered a review. they're going to have a review because there are things we are technological capable of dog enough that maybe we shouldn't do. but it's not the case we should stop spying. >> speaking of problems with friends, there's a serious dustup with perhaps our closest ally in the mideast, saudi arabia. seems to be increasingly unhappy

with obama policies when it comes to syria and iran and egypt. how big a deal is this? >> it's a big deal when syria, which has long south a seat on the security council, turns it down, because they say the cooperation, the requisite cooperation with the united states, is not possible because the president of the united states is not engaged, to put it politely or candidly. >> let's talk in the case of syria, they're upset because they feel the u.s. is not pushing hard enough to overthrow assad in the case of iran, they're upset with the new reproach with rouhani, saudi arabia's big threat. and the muslim brotherhood. >> it's difficult to overthrow assad when he is needed in the negotiation over chemical weapons. >> peter, your thoughts about the dustup -- you herous is this, the breach with saudi

arabia. >> clearly making their feelings know not just the security council seat they turned about, but in leaks about the prince, who used to be very close to the american establishment, it is a big deal, obviously, but what they're pushing president obama to do are things that president obama doesn't have the port to do, to be more involved in syria. we tried to do even a small military strike. so, he is caught between those international dynamics where there is agitation for more action in syria because it's gotten so bad, and the domestic politics which are not in favor of this. >> the president doesn't have the political support to do these things. in other words, the key point is, the president is being asked by a foreign ally to do something hard. this president doesn't like to do things that are hard. he likes to do things that are politically easy.

if it's hard, a likelihood he won't do it. >> point out, saudi arab had never been on the security council, lobbied to be on the security council, and then they suddenly said no, and one of their -- a message of disapproval to the u.s. thank you, panel. see you next week. our discussion continues every sunday on panel plus. we'll talk about obamacare. you can find it on our web site, fox news sunday.com. and follow us on twitter. up next, the power player of the week, for 30 years, a leading voice for american conservatives.

in a town filled with smart people, charles crowdhammer might be the most thoughtful. it is worth listening to what he has to say. here's our power player of the week. >> you earn your live giving opinions, which is quite a niles way to live, actually, because everybody has them, but for most people, they're given for free. >> he is talking about being a pundit. both in print and on television. he has been offering his opinions for almost 30 years. >> nobody worries or cares about what obama says because cares no without. >> he has put together a

collection of columns and speeches called, things that matter. and there's a common theme. >> the limits of human nature, the limits of politics, and the limits of what the state can do, which i think would make you something of a small government conservative today. >> you write, politicses the indispensable foundation for things elegant and beautiful. >> deep down i believe that ultimately everything hinges on getting your politics right. >> but is isn't just a book about politics. krauthammer writes before his real passions, chess, mathematics, space, baseball. >> any common themes there? >> yeah, they're all quite useless in the mechanical sense, and elegant. anything performed to a high level, a beautiful form, whether it's walking the balance beam, or whether it's playing shortstop, it shows the best of what humans can do, i find it

moving. >> crowdhammer had a terrible spinal accident 40 years ago that left him largely paralyzed. >> there will be no second round. >> while he can type, he often dictates columns. it hasn't slowed him down a bit. >> you write, conservatives think liberals are stupid. liberals thing conservatives are evil. >> absolutely. >> he says liberals tend to be nice, but foolishly think everyone else is nice, too. as for the flip side -- >> the liberals imagine that to want to, for example, reduce food stamps, or to cut back on the welfare, only -- that can only be advocated by people who are truly evil and enjoy throwing orphans in the snow. >> but the most astonishing column is one he wrote within hours of the attack on 9/11. he said, we had entered an age of terrorism, a war with radical islam, that demanded a military

response, not a judicial one. >> you seem to see the whole thing clearly within hours. >> this was a whole new kind of enemy. it it believes we are inherently evil, exactly as the other isms did, and we could not treat it like a crime. >> which is why he left his first career as a doctor, because history was happening and he wanted to be part of the flow. >> tom stafford wrote about lives in play. you spend your life putting words together. every once in a while you get them in just the right order and it gives the world a nudge. that's what i live for. >> be sure to tune in next week for part two of our power playe, we'll look at the terrible injury he suffered and his quiet resolve not to allow it to limit

his life. that's it for today. have a great week. we'll see you next sunday. . the federal government eliminating housing for the debt that it helped build. >> there's a lot of stories of out of control regulators but this just seems to be going to the extreme. she f